Episode Transcription

#45: Being a ‘Good’ Teacher Has Its Downfalls, with Jess Manton

0:00:04 - (Kirsty): Hello, lovely lady. Welcome to classroom to business, the podcast designed specifically for teachers working to become successful businesswomen and creating financial freedom and lifestyle flexibility. I'm Kirsty Gibbs, business coach and mentor for educators and teachers just like you who are ready to step away from the classroom and create something more. The Classroom to Business podcast is committed to helping you grow your business, break down those barriers to success, and replace your teaching salary without having to work more hours.

0:00:36 - (Kirsty): It's time for you to find freedom and start being your own boss so you can once again enjoy what you do and wake up each morning loving life. Let's get into it.

0:00:50 - (Kirsty): All right. Today I have got a special guest, Jesse from Jess Manton, special education services with us because she joined us for the retreat that we ran in May, northern New South Wales. And one of the topics that came up just in one of our random conversations, I think it was one of the nights, was really interesting and I thought we need to chat about this a little bit further. So welcome, Jess. Thank you for coming onto the podcast.

0:01:23 - (Kirsty): Can you remember what it was that you said that night?

0:01:28 - (Jess): Well, I think I'm going to start with a little bit of context, if that's okay. So my background is in the secondary classroom. So I've been a secondary english teacher for 1213 years before I jumped into running my own business. So my experience would be a little bit different to a primary school teachers, for example, in that I'm working with beautiful teenagers, mix of ages 13 all the way up to 18.

0:02:09 - (Jess): We know the challenges or the things that teenagers experience as part of that learning journey can be a time of motivation. It can be a time of demotivation, time of hormones and all those, you know, wonderful things. And I think as a teacher in a secondary context, you see lots of individual students, you move, you know, between periods and, and you have, you know, a range of classes that you see every day.

0:02:43 - (Jess): And I think, you know, what we were kind of talking about in that conversation was, for me, particularly around the identity of being a good teacher. And for me, I take a lot of pride in what I do. And I like to think that I'm a good teacher and that I know how to bring out the best in students. But I think towards the end of my career in the classroom, I found it more and more challenging because I had been driven to do more study, I had been driven to improve myself, you know, change and upskilling yourself.

0:03:30 - (Kirsty): Was that driven by you or driven by your school or.

0:03:36 - (Jess): I would say a mix. I would say probably predominantly driven by myself. That's very much part of my personality. I guess I would argue it's a part of many teachers personalities because you head into learning often because you're a learner yourself and you enjoy bettering yourself. And it's also a profession where you are giving of others, so you have a need to care for or improve the lives of others. It's a service industry, but, yeah, coming back. So towards the end of my career, I started to find it more difficult heading into the classroom where I would have high expectations of the kids in front of me.

0:04:27 - (Jess): I'd provide the scaffolding, but ultimately I would be putting into practice the things that I had learned that were beneficial to student learning. And that became challenging when I would, you know, walk into the classroom and me wanting to do my job well was met with disdain or groans or, why can't we just watch a movie? You know? And it got me thinking that, you know, it's one of the only professions where the better you are at your job often, you know, the less, you know, the less happy students are about it.

0:05:25 - (Jess): And one can argue that if you're, if you are good at your job, then you are engaging your students and you're, you know, trying to bring them in and, you know, the other side.

0:05:37 - (Kirsty): Of the coin as well. And, yeah, this is, I agree, where there's those teachers who are not great at their job, but they are out there kicking the ball around with those kids instead of following the curriculum or, like you said, being good at their job. They're not actually teaching. They're out there being the fun teacher. And that's what the kids are like. Yeah, this is, this is who I, this is my favorite teacher, you know, so I I get what you're saying.

0:06:08 - (Jess): And a challenge with a subject like mine, you know, what, what year nine kid wants to write an essay, you know, and that's, and that's it. Like, I, like, yeah, I, it's a challenging gig to kind of, to do that. And I don't think you can always put a back on the kids in that, you know, often their experience of learning is very, very varied. But I think, yeah. From a, from a viewpoint of, you know, an educated person in a profession, that, that does wear you down because it's almost like you're fighting to do your job well.

0:06:49 - (Jess): And I think, you know, to contrast it with working in my own business, the, the appreciation that I get from parents, you know, is very affirming. And that is often lacking for classroom teachers, too, because they're not getting that affirmation from parents or, you know, there's a mixture of expectations on them that don't always mean that they can, you know, do the best for every single child in, you know, seated in front of them. Yeah.

0:07:29 - (Kirsty): And I think also it, I think the schools, sometimes when you are good, it's so can and truth. But when you are good at what you do and you put in the extra work, all of a sudden they.

0:07:43 - (Jess): Expect more of you.

0:07:44 - (Kirsty): And I'm not sure if that's something you've experienced, but it's definitely the more competent you are.

0:07:48 - (Jess): Exactly.

0:07:50 - (Kirsty): And, I mean, there are no pay rises. There's no thanks. There's nothing extra that you get for it. Generally, we do it because we can see the benefit for the kids and we can see that the impact that it will have for students, the school, whatever. So it comes back to that whole, we're trying to do the right thing, we're trying to be better. And then I think for a lot.

0:08:17 - (Kirsty): Of people, it gets to a point.

0:08:18 - (Kirsty): Where they just get used because, like I said, they don't get anything back personally other than knowing that you're doing a good thing and knowing that you're making a positive impact. But I think teachers already know that, and I think that that's where sometimes teachers will leave the classroom again because they're like, well, I can see that I can continue to make this positive impact by myself on my own terms, without being used.

0:08:49 - (Kirsty): But did you find when you were at school that you ever felt that way, or were you, or could you ever see that happen to others or.

0:08:58 - (Jess): I most definitely did say, you know, see that kind of sentiment? I mean, I was very lucky in that I worked. The schools that I worked at were always very supportive of their staff. But I do think there are variations with regards to work ethic amongst teachers, and I do think that there are teachers who will just kind of take a step back rather than moving forward to volunteer or to, you know, show that they want to do the extra. And I think, you know, that that's probably the same in any workplace. But I think I, yes, there's certainly this idea of these jobs need to be done and they need to be done properly and they need to be done well.

0:09:51 - (Jess): And sometimes ultimately, it goes to the people who, you know, are known to take pride in their work or take pride in the jobs that are allocated for them. And I do think there is a discrepancy, particularly because of the way in which the system is structured too. You know, it's not structured as a business is where there's accountability and sort of review and things like that of staff. And I'm not necessarily, I don't necessarily think that that's the way in which the system should go, but I do think that that is a factor.

0:10:35 - (Jess): Yeah.

0:10:37 - (Kirsty): So we also, last night, we had lots of interesting, semi controversial discussions and talked on topics. Where do you feel that you as a business owner are making an impact? Because you are that person who, you know, you've gone and done the extra study and you are very good at what you do. You're very experienced, you're extremely passionate. And to you, it really matters. Those kids really matter.

0:11:13 - (Kirsty): How, how is that different for you now in your business? Like you mentioned, obviously you get, you know, that feedback from the parents and things like that, but as a whole, like, now that you're out of, you know, you're not having that system that's constraining you. And what does that feel like now for you like to wake up and know that difference?

0:11:36 - (Jess): I think it's brought with it a set of new challenges. Sure, you know, business challenges, but my job is easier. And that's from the perspective of that, you know, I'm not caring for, you know, 150 little minds in an average day. I'm caring for, you know, six or seven and, and, you know, can actually focus in on what those individuals actually need. So, you know, that that has made the job much easier.

0:12:18 - (Jess): And I think, you know, I'm. I'm a relatively introverted person. And so I have found that, you know, my mental health has certainly improved as a consequence of being able to retreat and, you know, not needing to interact with so many people all day. You know, the tabs are still open in the mind and still, you know, pressing things that, and new things I have to learn, certainly with growing a business. And there is a bit of, you know, I was saying to Kath this morning, you know, I still have those waves of impostor syndrome where I think, you know, who are you and why do you think you can do this?

0:13:04 - (Kirsty): But you do know the answer to that.

0:13:06 - (Jess): Yeah. Yes.

0:13:06 - (Kirsty): Okay.

0:13:07 - (Jess): Yes.

0:13:08 - (Kirsty): But imposter syndrome, it is, it comes and goes, and it's such an annoying thing. But as long as you do know your worth and your value of what you do, I think it can continue to come.

0:13:20 - (Jess): Yeah. But this has been a saving grace for me. And, you know, and I was very lucky that I worked with some colleagues who gave me a bit of a stepping stone into the business world. But, you know, it has been for me because I was just unhappy. I was, you know, counting down the hours until the end of the day, and then I would go home feeling guilty because I hadn't been my best self to those, you know, individuals in the classroom in front of myself, in front of me, and then I would beat myself up about that.

0:14:02 - (Jess): Um, and so, you know, upon reflection, making that exit and creating. Creating the boundaries around the lifestyle that I want. But, you know, and what I need in order to just, you know, be a happy person and be there for my kids, you know, this. This business has. Has been a gift, but. But having. Having a mentor or having a coach, I think, is an integral part of that, too, because I think it can be isolating, particularly if you're working in an area where there aren't other people doing what you want to do or they're not doing it in a formal setup, like a business kind of setup, it can be a little bit isolating.

0:14:53 - (Jess): And so I think having a base of people to be able to reach out to and, you know, share with. And I was saying last night, you know, that's. That is something that I miss from school. I miss the staff room, and I miss sitting with other english teachers and talking about, you know, literature and things that we've read and, you know, a text that they were analyzing. And I miss that because, you know, you do, you develop a friendship. And I would say that that was probably what kept me going to school to see those people. And so I think, yeah, I think it's important to create your own tribe.

0:15:39 - (Jess): And whether that is, you know, in the way in which you're operating the business or whether it's, you know, other people who are teaching the way that you are, I think that's incredibly important.

0:15:52 - (Kirsty): Yeah, I think you're right. And, you know, I say this a bit, that business can be really, really lonely. And it also is exaggerated by the fact that we've come from such a high people environment. You know, we've got 25. Well, you've seen over 100 kids a day on a daily basis, and then all of your staff, then all of a sudden to go to six kids a day with, you know, maybe some parent interaction along the way, it is a massive change. Yeah, but it does sound like, like.

0:16:30 - (Kirsty): You said, for your mental health, for.

0:16:31 - (Kirsty): Your family, for everything that's happened, you know, that. That change. It sounds like this has been massive for you.

0:16:38 - (Jess): Yeah, it has been. Yeah.

0:16:39 - (Kirsty): That's awesome.

0:16:40 - (Jess): Yeah.

0:16:40 - (Kirsty): That's so good. So do you think coming back to our first point of, you know, this is probably one of the only industries where if you are good at what you do and, you know, you work, you put in more that you're actually faced with more challenges. Have you got any takeaway tips to finish off on that for people who are in that situation of maybe what they could do to ease that at all or ease the mental load or that, you know, like you said, feelings of guilt or anything like that, anything that helped you at all?

0:17:17 - (Jess): I think experience is significant and I do think, you know, those years between, you know, from a secondary context, those years between eight and ten can be a bit challenging. And then you see the kids move into year eleven and twelve and you often get the thanks at the end where they actually realize, you know, that, that the reason why they are who they are is because those teachers kept persevering and kept coming in and expecting, you know, and engaging them and trying to, yeah, get the best from them. So I think, you know, my recommendation, I guess, is to try and keep some perspective around that.

0:18:02 - (Jess): Yeah. But I also think it's, it's having patience and kindness with yourself and, you know, trying, trying to avoid taking on the emotional load and that's easy to say, but, you know, understanding too, that you're working and operating within a system that is a very challenging system to navigate. Um, you know, probably both as a student and as a staff member. Um, and, you know, it's important to try and keep a sense of self amongst that and keep a sense of purpose and keep revisiting that purpose.

0:18:50 - (Jess): Um, and, you know, just. Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky one to answer that.

0:18:59 - (Kirsty): They're all really helpful, though. And I think I, you know, obviously you got to a point where you were done and you wanted to help those kids in other ways, which I take my hat off to and anybody who does that because it is a very scary thing to do. And I think that it takes so much courage to step away from something that you've been in for so long, something that is safe, something that people are like, well, why would you leave a perfectly good job, you know, because that's what people see it as. You get paid your holidays, you get all of these things.

0:19:32 - (Kirsty): So, you know, I do congratulate you on that, but I also know that not everyone feels confident to do that. So I think those things that you shared then hopefully help people who are in that situation. But thank you so much, Jess, for coming on today and sharing that. I think, you know, I feel like we could probably do a heap of different podcast episodes on all sorts of different conversations. I have to get you back on again one day.

0:20:01 - (Jess): Thank you.

0:20:07 - (Kirsty): If you enjoyed this episode today, I would absolutely love for you to leave a review. It only takes a minute, and if you haven't yet subscribed, make sure you do to ensure that you never miss an episode. Finally, if you want to know more about what we do, head over to to the website kirstygibbs.com or check out the link in the show notes below. Thanks for listening. It's so great to have you here.