Episode Transcription

 

Kirsty Gibbs: All right. I'm really, really excited today because I'm doing this podcast episode with Harry Mavrolefteros from First Education. Did I pronounce it right? 

Harry Mavrolefteros: You pronounce it perfectly.

Kirsty Gibbs: Oh, okay. I've been practicing.

Harry Mavrolefteros: It's not an easy name.

 Kirsty Gibbs: Harry has an extremely successful tutoring business. I'll let him talk to you more about that in a bit.

But Harry and I have been working together, doing some one-on-one coaching for the last six months. And, you know, you just signed up for another six months, which is super exciting.

But I wanted to bring Harry on today because he has an approach to business that... I love. And even though we're going through this and I'm the coach, I learned so much off of Harry.

And I thought that those of who listened to this podcast could as well. So thank you for being here, Harry.

Do you want to tell everyone a little bit about you, your business, where you are?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Definitely. Yeah. So, yeah, I run tutoring centers called First Education, as you said. So we're in Sydney's east and inner west.

We've got centers in Bondi, Randrick, Maroubra, Mascot, and Elwood. And basically, our thing is to build our students' passion and confidence.

We're very, like, I started First Education 15 years ago with this idea of, okay, I really want students to be enjoying their learning.

want them to believe in themselves. Obviously, marks and results matter. But the first port of call is, let's get our students positive about the whole process.

It upsets me that learning is not enjoyable. It doesn't make sense in some way. Yeah. Believing in yourself is such an important part of almost the point of education, this idea that if you put in work, it's going to pay off, and that's a positive loop that should be in everyone's psyche.

So, yeah, we started that 15 years ago, and now we've got 1,100 students at the five centres, which is a massive privilege to be able to support that many students, and a massive thank you to the parents that entrust us every week with their students' learning.

And, yeah, we do this through one-on-one tuition. So it's predominantly one-on-one. have some small groups for year 11 and 12 in the subjects like maths, physics, and chemistry, where it's more standardised in the sense that you can still have benefit out of having small groups.

But the overwhelming majority is one-on-one from kindergarten to year 12. Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: So good. And I think some people listening are going to say, sorry, did you say 1,100 students? Yes.

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah, yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: That is huge. What an amazing. Amazing achievement. Like, you should be so proud because not only have you been able to manage staff and the growth of a business, but you are impacting 1,100 students.

Like, that is wild. Yeah, I call far too much credit for this.

Harry Mavrolefteros: It's definitely a result of, like, we can do so by ourselves. It's definitely a result of finding the right people and, yeah, I guess making enough mistakes that aren't too bad that you can learn from them and then adjusting it.

Yeah, and really sticking to what's most important, getting rid of stuff that, you know, is less important, keeping your eye on the target.

Yeah, and finding the right people that will go on the journey with you. Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: Did you always imagine building something this big, you know, with that many students? did it just sort of evolve?

Harry Mavrolefteros: No, I actually, okay, this is a weird source of inspiration. I try and hold very vividly a memory of my godfather years ago.

So I think I just started education and there was only one center and it was above my parents' optometrists and we had like 20 students maybe.

And I remember my godfather saying, one day you'll have 300 students and you won't know what to do with them and you'll need a bigger space and all this stuff.

And he said, as a matter of fact, I genuinely thought this could never happen. Like I genuinely thought this was impossible.

Like I was a 22-year-old with, like, yeah, I had a very real sense of, okay, he's your godfather. He's going to say nice things to you because, you know, but I never had this sense of, no, no, no, he knows better than you what you're capable of.

And if you just like give it a go and do all the right things, you'll get there. And I find it really helpful to remember that not only retroactively but also proactively because there are certain things that I think are impossible.

I think there's no way I could do certain things. But then I question sometimes, like, okay, actually. Can you not do it?

Or like, could this be one of those moments where, you know what, in 10 years time, maybe I'm, maybe, yeah, maybe it can be done. 

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. What's it actually like now, like on a day-to-day basis, managing that many students and staff?

Can you give us a little bit of a glimpse into the systems or maybe the challenges that you have?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah, definitely. A lot of it is not that different. I'd say the most enjoyable parts are not that different in terms of the tutoring is still very much the same.

Like I still tutor students, and I love that. And that is not really very different at all. I guess the challenge is in the, well, the challenge that I've found is in the scaling, where it's more about putting broader systems in place and finding the right people who believe the same kind of things as I believe and kind of have the same kind of culture and the same ethos.

I guess, so that it can scale, because you don't want to lose why you do what you do. You don't want it just to become about, oh, I just want to grow and grow and grow.

It's important to, well, I found it very important to have in mind, look, if we're going to do this amazing thing, it's better to have 1,000 kids than 100 kids.

It's better to have 100 kids than 10 kids. It's better to have 10,000 kids than 1,000 kids, as long as you're doing that thing.

Like if we, so my focus is very much on building systems. We're just starting a new website, and we've got a wonderful developer.

We've got lots of people working on this great new system that we have, which basically lets us do all the CRM, the client relationship management, the scheduling.

And that's been a massive help to automate that process. So, yeah, a lot of it is more based around nudging, I guess, people and systems in the right direction, as opposed to like...

Yeah. I'm personally invoicing a parent. So there's less interaction on a hands-on level, but I try and keep as much of the meaningful interaction as I can so that I don't lose touch with what it is that we're doing.

Kirsty Gibbs: It's always a balance. I love that, and I think that's one of the things that stands out about working with you and getting to know you and how you run business.

You do it in a way like I do think a lot of teachers and educators, just people who work with kids, and I say it all the time, we have these big kind hearts and we really want to do well, and often the focus just becomes too much on the kids.

It's not bad for us to focus on kids, but we have to have that balance of growing a business as well, and I think you do that so well, and I think part of the reason why it works out for you is because you still put people first.

But you're also knowing that there needs to be money made in your business. 

Harry Mavrolefteros: 100%. And it's not selfish or wrong to make money. It's not like, you know, I don't know, like there's this sense of, and I feel it sometimes a sense of like guilt as to being successful, which is like very unhelpful.

Like if you can do what you do, and you can help more people, and you can do the right thing, money just means that you can do more of it.

Like the more resources you have, and the more money you have, well, you can use that to just multiply and do what you do on a bigger scale.

I've actually thought about something like this. Most people have, like there's this standard attitude where like money, like work serves money.

Like the priority is to make money, and then the idea is you want to work in order to achieve that goal, and it's causally that way.

Whereas I remember from a long time ago, even as a child, and this is definitely something that I want to do.

that my dad instilled in us. The money serves the work. Like the point of life in a broader sense, I guess, is to give the best of yourself to the world.

So essentially to work, to like give what you can to help people to make the world a better place.

That's the goal. Money just means you can do it better and more and more efficiently because, yeah, which feels like a more fulfilling way to look at it.

So the money isn't, it's not the end goal. The end goal is to just do what you can do with the gifts that you didn't deserve to have and cultivate them in a better way to help other people.

But the more you have, the more resources you have in general, and it's not just money, it's also time, it's, you know, access to people.

It's, yeah, the more resources you have, well, the better you can do that thing, which is the ultimate goal.

Like the ultimate goal is work in a sense, not to just, you know, take a check on it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: Awesome. I've also noticed how intentional and proactive you are as a leader. And like I said, it kind of Okay.

ties in you are very much a people person, but you do very much consider your staff and your parents.

Like you're so proactive in getting ahead of any issues that might arise with both staff and students because obviously you have a large amount of staff working with 1,100 students, five centres.

Like that's a lot of people to manage and a lot of extra drama. I mean, staffing is, I know for me, it was the hardest part of my business, and I think that resonates for a lot of other tutoring business owners.

Can you talk about some of the things that you've put in place for you? I mean, I'm not going to say you're a workaholic because you're not, but to avoid you falling into that place of burnout and having business take over.

Like full of your life because you are dedicated to. And I know that you consciously have that time for them as well and, you know, getting to the gym and the things like that.

So what sorts of things, you know, have you put in place to avoid burnout and that chaos?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah, no, wonderful question. And this is not a consequence of like some big brain I've thought this through. I just failed enough and then I guess you learn from it.

Like we had like my wife and I, well, yeah, we had our first son and I was still working 70, 80 hour weeks.

And I think you've been too kind to me. I definitely am a workaholic.

Kirsty Gibbs: Well, I'm a recovering workaholic. Like I'm a workaholic. I almost like intellectually know it's not good for me, but I still really want to feed this.

Harry Mavrolefteros: I want to scratch this edge. But yes, so I was working very long hours, but I loved it. wasn't a sense of like, oh, it was really hard.

Like I loved it, but at some point it went from, you know, working nine to nine, six days a week and, you know, hours on the laptop after that to, you know.

Making it nine to seven, five days a week. And it probably took me too long to realize that, to my great shame.

I should have probably done that earlier. But, yeah, realizing that was a huge part of it. And I guess as a result of that and other mistakes, I guess I realized that, okay, you can do more if you think of other people and use their strengths.

Like, it's almost like I have this semi-arrogant notion that, like, I can do things better than other people. And therefore, I get frustrated when, like, you ask someone to do something and they don't do it the exact way you would do it.

But I realized at some point that, like, well, you're setting someone up to fail. Like, if you give someone a job to do and you expect you have the very strict parameters of exactly how you would do it, you're basically seeing how good someone can be a clone of you.

And they're never going to be a good clone of you because they're their own person and they're themselves. And I realize a much better approach is to find the bare...

Minimum requirements for the job. Like, just give people as much freedom as possible within the constraints of this is the end goal that needs to be done.

Like, we had a job which is, I used to do this, but then time ran out. It was to call all the parents every term and then call.

And it used to be have a coffee with each of the tutors, but then that became a phone call as well.

And it was eventually an SMS to each of the parents. And I, yeah, the way I went about getting someone to fill that role was to, I guess, have the meaningfulness of something.

It's a really important role. It means we can preempt the problems, like you said. And then they were able to fill in the details.

I think Steve Jobs said something like, we don't pay smart people to tell them what to do. We pay smart people so they can tell us what to do.

Like, it's, yeah, all this comes from, like, making the mistake and then realizing, okay, okay, that was dumb. And then the next time you realize, okay, just give someone to be, like, find someone who has

The desire and the same kind of values, give them the least restrictions, the better, as long as they understand the goal.

And almost always, people surprise me. People come up with strategies that are better than what I would have come up with, and it's fantastic.

That's what you want. I think you want a situation where your staff are better than you. Well, better than you in the sense of they're doing things that you wouldn't have thought of.

And that's a good sign, I think, that, yeah, like you're setting up structures that let people manifest the best version of themselves rather than being the less bad version of yourself that you're trying to hone them into. 

Kirsty Gibbs: I love that. I absolutely love that. And see what I said? I'm learning from you along the way because, you know, these are the sorts of things that I think so many of us, you just said before you think it's a bit arrogant thinking that you, you know, are the person to do.

I can guarantee nearly everyone listening to this podcast has at some point thought that as well. Oh, yes.

Harry Mavrolefteros: 100%.

Kirsty Gibbs: I still think it.

Harry Mavrolefteros: I have to force myself out of this stupid belief that I know best in every single instance what to do.

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah. I think it's normal, but I think where the difference is between someone becoming successful and growing their business and scaling it like you have is when that person steps back, like you said.

It's not saying that you're just choosing a random person who's not going to be any good. You're saying choosing a person who's, like you said, got the same passion and dedication and values, and then you're giving them the freedom to come up with the best way to get to the outcome that you've given them.

Harry Mavrolefteros: And that is such an empowering way for that employee or that staff member to work for you. Yeah. No, no, no, and it's...

it's... So there's some homogenous entity that feels like a robotic, yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah. And the other thing I really, I mean, when you first told me that you did this, I was, I'm not going to lie, I was a little terrified.

But you told me that, you know, there are certain staff members that you just trust them to tell you what they did this week and how many hours they worked.

And so it's not like I said amount that you always pay them. And I'm not just talking about tutors.

I'm talking about, you know, other center managers and people like that in your, in your business, in your company.

That, how did you come to that? Because I think most people would be so of the mindset of, I don't want people ripping me off.

I don't want people doing wrong by me. How did you come into this with such a, you know, like at peaceness?

I know that's not even correct.

Harry Mavrolefteros: No, I understand the concept, So you should say. You're right. I do have, like, with our, well, some roles you can easily put a quantity, you know, like tutors, for example, you have hours tutored, and that's pretty black and white, so whatever.

But admin staff, or just staff in general to fill a role, it's not obvious how many hours you need to fill a role.

And I don't want to pay someone for, you know, I don't know, 20 hours a week, when at some point they might need to put in 30 hours, and at some point they might need to put in 10, or the hours might change.

Like, want everyone to feel as autonomous and meaningfully involved as possible. So, okay, yes, it's scary. It is definitely scary in a sense, just telling someone, look, tell me how many hours you worked, and I'll multiply by your rate, and we'll send some money across.

But it's almost like, okay, okay, it avoids a bigger problem. It avoids a bigger invisible problem. So, the bigger invisible problem is you don't get that person's buy-in.

Like, they're not invested. Because, well, I get the same amount of pay. So what can I get away with to not lose my job?

Like you have less of that, because people know that you trust them. They value that. Okay, I'm sure they, yeah, like, yeah, maybe I'm blind to the, like, maybe there is a lack of trust in the system.

But I don't know, like, the right, I think the right kind of person, hopefully I found these people, and I really think I have, appreciate this and reciprocate.

The trust in a much, yeah, in a really, in a way that means that when there's 30 hours of work to do, they'll do 30 hours.

And it also means that when I get, like, when I get an email, like, if someone sends me a weekly thing for 50 hours, I don't feel like, oh, my God, that's so expensive.

I feel gratitude that they put in 50 hours. And it's important to have reporting and to explain, you know, what they did with that time.

Like, you don't want to be stupidly. Well, not stupidly, but like naively trusting either. But generally speaking, if you give people trust, they will do the right thing.

I found that like it's not, okay, it's not locked doors that stop people from stealing cars. It's people not being douches.

Like it's just the moral fabric of society. Like people are inherently good and moral and want to do the right thing.

And they know when they're doing the wrong thing. And if you treat them like that, then that's fine. If you treat them like children that need to be disciplined and monitored, well, then it's almost like they're going to push the boundaries more because they feel like they're being treated like children.

Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: I love that. I really, really hope that – so far this has been my favourite episode, by the way.

Harry Mavrolefteros: This is just fantastic.

Kirsty Gibbs: And I really hope that lots of people are listening to this and those people who have got – Or who are thinking about a team and seeing that it's not actually as scary as you think, you know, like bringing staff members on doesn't have to be painful.

Yes, it can be challenging. And like I said, usually it's the hardest part of having a service based business, but there's so much, this is a really corny word, but beauty that you can bring to your business through the way that you treat your staff.

What have you learned about people along the journey? So whether that's staff or students or even yourself, as your business has grown, because obviously, like you said, you started with 20 and now it's 1100.

What's some of the things that stood out the most to you, big learning moments?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah, that's a really good question. I've learned that the cost of not listening is high, or the cost of not setting up an environment where you would listen is high.

Like, I almost see it as a failure when I complain. It comes to me, not because of the thing that caused the complaint, but because I wasn't on top of it enough to preempt it, that I knew about it and someone had to come to me for it.

Like, I always want to be, I want to be asking the question, is everything okay? And then anyone, the parent, the tutor, the staff member, whatever says, yeah, actually, Harry, I have this X, Y, Z problem.

I would always rather be in that position where I'm asking, you know, is everything okay with X, Y, Z?

Like, you want to have an intuition around, like, just a regular checkup is super helpful, and that's a big part of what we do.

But also, if something's wrong, and you've been super helpful with this over the past six months, if something's wrong, like, not ignoring it, having the tough conversations, having them early, yeah, it's so helpful.

Because everyone ultimately wants the same kind of thing. Like, we're not, like, very few people are in it to just...

Selfishly grab whatever they can. Most people are going to do the right thing. And if they're not, you're going to sense it quickly.

And another lesson that I really learned and appreciate is that, I forget if you told me this, I think this might be something you did, but it's like, I've learned that it's okay to fail.

In fact, it's good to be failing, you know, five to 10% of the time. It's almost like if you're not, like if someone isn't screwing you over once in a while, you're not trying hard enough.

You're not taking enough risks. Like statistically, things are going to go bad. You don't know which five or 10%, but things are going to go bad five to 10% of the time.

And if they're going well 100% of the time, you're probably, I feel like an alarm bell goes off and I'm like, you're not playing big enough.

Like you're not trying hard enough. Like there are risks that you should be taking, but you're not because you're worried about the consequence.

Like you're kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face. Like sometimes I've made decisions to... You know, to save 10 grand that cost you 100 grand in potential profit.

you think that, like, in hindsight, that doesn't make sense. Like, just, yeah, like, sometimes you're going to lose some money once in a while, and it's necessary to then have a much greater impact.

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah, and that's it. Growth doesn't usually come when we're in our comfort zone.

Harry Mavrolefteros: You know, it comes when we step out into something that's scarier.

Kirsty Gibbs: And usually we make those mistakes along the way because they're things that we haven't done before, and we don't know how to do them.

Harry Mavrolefteros: 100%. I think Nietzsche said something like, the snake that refuses to shed its skin must die.

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah.

Harry Mavrolefteros: Which I feel like is, like, maybe that wasn't Nietzsche, but someone, you know, much more than me. Yeah, which is, yeah, like, it's never comfortable, essentially.

And there's always a risk. And I find it very hard when you first hire the first person. I think that's really hard because all you see is cost and no gain.

Like, you're not, like, at the beginning. You're just spending your time showing someone stuff, and they're costing you money being shown stuff, and then nothing is being automated or produced or making your life easier, and then they're making a mistake you wouldn't have made, and you're like, oh my God, why do I even have this person?

And then there's this constant process. But if you, I don't know, it helps to take a step back and be like, you know what, I'm going to lose three grand starting this person, five grand, ten grand, whatever it is.

You just accept that there's always going to be an initial investment, and it's ultimately going to be worth it. 

Kirsty Gibbs: You just prompted me to think, this is not something that we've actually probably spoken about, you or I, but when you started your business, because I think this is a stage that a lot of people get stuck in.

They know they want to start a tutoring business. They get in there, go gun ho, maybe they've got, you know, 10 to 20 students.

Often they're too busy. They can't do any more because, you know, limited times and juggling families.

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah. And then they just stayed there.

Kirsty Gibbs: And this is actually a really dangerous place because I see so many people not even making money or they're paying themselves like $300 a week. 

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: And initially they have these dreams of replacing their teaching income. And I've assured them that that's possible. I've assured them that you can double that and then some, depending on how you run your business, obviously.

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: But it's like they're in this cycle of just focusing on students. And I don't know what it is, but there's something there that makes people stuck.

Did you ever feel like you were in that zone? Or like and how did you get to that next stage of I'm going big?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah. No, it's a very, very good question. Okay. So 15 years ago. So I had, like, yeah, I've been tutoring for 20 plus years, but at uni it was like you drive around people's houses thing, and there were like 10 to 20 students.

So October 2010, it was, yeah, I'm just a 22-year-old above my parents' optometrist in this space that, like, weirdly I can tutor in, and it was free rent, which is massively helpful.

So I definitely had a decent head start in terms of, like, a rent-free place, but you can do it from your home in, like, a rent-free place.

There are other ways to do this. Or you do it in a library or you drive around people's houses.

There are ways to do this with normal starting costs, which is one really good thing about our industry. But then there is definitely a sense of, okay, if I get another tutor, you know, what if they do this?

Or, you know, if I get an admin person to invoice my parents to save me time or to take care of our accounting, well, then it's going to cost this much, and what's that going to do?

So this is definitely a thought process that happened with me a lot. is that do for I think So the thing, and by the there's nothing to be said about just being a one-man team and helping the kids you can help.

I think that's fine. If you want to do that and that's your jam, that's amazing. And you can make some money from it and that's perfectly fine.

There's nothing, yeah, I can't really get wrong with that. That's fantastic. But if you do want to grow genuinely, I think accepting a healthy amount of failure is weirdly important.

Like it's going to be, look, yeah, and accepting a certain amount of like, I'm not going to know what's going to happen and I'm going to be wrong.

I don't know where it's going to happen. It's this weird balance of being completely convinced that what you're doing is okay and acting like it's perfect.

But at the same time, knowing that you're actually very flawed and often you're going to be wrong and you're going to fall on your face.

And you don't know when it's going to happen because if you did, you would have avoided it. But you're just still plowing along as if it's all G.

And then you just. You just cop the punches when they come, pick yourself up and go from there. It's something like that because it's not easy, and it definitely feels like you're taking one step back to take two steps forward.

There's definitely something to be said about surrounding yourself with a good support network. Like I had my parents supporting me later, my girlfriend, who I then married, and my wife now.

Like having these key people that love you and care for you to look at it from the outside and be like, hey, I know this is tough, but you're doing it right.

You know, things are on track. Keep at it. Giving tough words even when someone like you to say, yeah, you know what?

Don't do this. This is not helpful. We've been asking, there's so many times you ask me, you know, why are you doing this job?

Could it not be more automated? Could you not do you have to do this thing or are you just holding on to it because you don't see a way that some.

Someone else could do it, which is 100% the right advice, and to have these people early on is really helpful.

In fact, business coaching in general is essentially like a paid and more effective distilled version of the, I don't know, supportive spouse, mother, father, but it's much more like you're something like, you know, a good business coach like yourself and Kirsty, you've been amazing in the last few months, is something like a hybrid of like Yoda wisdom with like mother's love.

Like something like, it's like someone that supports you and makes you feel like you've got this, but also like tells you to get over it and use the force and lift the X-Wing out of the marsh.

Like just like there's a knowledgeable tough love that goes along with the, you've got this, which is really helpful.

Kirsty Gibbs: I wish my children had the same amount of positive thoughts about me that you do. 

Harry Mavrolefteros: Oh, I promise you, my child self didn't really.

Kirsty Gibbs: I think our kids will see it when they have ones of their own. 

Harry Mavrolefteros: But it is so true. 

Kirsty Gibbs: And I'm sitting here just thinking about your, talking about your journey and thought, yeah, that's kind of how I felt too.

Like I had no idea what I was doing. I just knew I wanted to do it. And I didn't, I made mistakes, heaps of mistakes along the way.

I wasted lots of time and money and all those sorts of things. But I just knew that I wanted to, you know, get to a certain point, you know, have students and have second centres and do all of these sorts of things.

And I was just going to make it happen. I didn't ever once get to a point where I just stayed stuck, I guess.

And I do think it's such a mindset thing. It's getting past the fear. past fear. It's Like you kind of said, it's not ever going to be perfect.

There's not a perfect time to do anything. It's like having kids. 

Harry Mavrolefteros:  no perfect time.

Kirsty Gibbs: You just do it, and then you learn as you go, and you make mistakes, and then you grow. And then, like you said, you learn from coaches or family or friends or other people.

They can support you to help you do things quicker and easier without as many mistakes, and then take things to that next level.

But you have to be open to making mistakes, and you have to be open, and you said it before, to kind of take going backwards a bit financially to know that you're going to go forwards, you know, even bigger eventually.

So in your journey, you know, from when you started to now, is there a decision or a time within that that something stands out to you that you're really proud of, something that you can look back on and think, oh, I'm so glad I did that, or...

You know, from when you started or even recently?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah, yeah. There have been a few, and it's always exactly what you said before. It's always that thing of this is going to hurt and it's going to be hard and things are going to go wrong, but I know it's ultimately, it's that kind of thing.

And most of that is internal. Most of that is you feeling like, what if this is wrong? It's not even you're investing money.

You're almost investing like belief in yourself to say, but yeah, it's, it would have been when we had our first center manager.

So a couple of years in, yeah, we had our first center manager, Adam, who is an amazing human being and really taught me so much about the whole dynamic of leadership and how to get the best out of people and how to make them feel inspired and moving on track.

A little bit after a mistake. mistake. It wasn't always a smooth sailing, but it was always edifying. It always helped me to learn and to build up from that.

And, yeah, so I think the first center manager was big, like having an admin person, like it not being me running the center on a day-to-day basis.

Like that was big. Definitely opening a second location felt like a big deal. Um, because all of a sudden I wasn't, I didn't know where I was going, like, where am I going to be?

And, okay, they have their own center manager, but I still want to be physically around. And, uh, so that was, uh, that was a tough one.

And the other one I'm going through right now, which is this new system that we're developing. Um, that's been tough.

Uh, like part of me felt like, like all these changes, it felt a bit like I was, I was killing my old business and starting a new business.

They felt weirdly like that. I almost felt like I want to rebrand or I want to change the name because it didn't feel like the same.

It felt like was running a different business. But I think all substantial growth feels a bit like death and rebirth, right?

Like it's meant to feel a bit like what was no longer is and is like a shift and I'm going to change my thinking and we would do things or whatever.

It was very much, yeah, it's those kind of moments. And it's those three that I can really point to the standout.

was our first standout manager, the second center, and now, like in the last few months where we're redoing our internal system.

Yeah. 

Kirsty Gibbs:. Right, so obviously you have a lot of staff, and I would love to know what sorts of things you do with your staff to keep those retention rates high, to keep your staff happy, because like you said before, it's important to have those people around you and as part of your team to keep your business successful and growing.

So what sort of things have you done with your staff or in your business to make that happen? 

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yeah, that's a really good question. I guess a lot of it I didn't... Naturally, at first, Kazar was like a 22, 23-year-old.

So like, as in, and a lot of the Tudors were the same age, or like just a little bit younger, or something like an older brother figure, I guess.

So it was very natural to, you know, have parties at the center, or to, like, we watched most of the Avengers movies as midnight screenings, as like a Tudor body.

And that felt very like, which is what you'd normally do. So, like, it just felt natural. Like, we'd just hang out, we'd do pub crawls, and we'd, like, get, like, hubbly-bubbly.

Like, we'd just do stuff that felt fun, and that flowed, I guess, kind of naturally. It's harder, yeah, it's harder as I get older, in the sense of, like, well, that's not how I would naturally hang, and now the Tudors are, like, 15, 20 years younger than me.

But I've tried to maintain a sense of just having fun and hanging out. And... And being social, like, okay, 200 bucks for some pizzas or some drinks at a bar or a bowling night or a movie premiere or whatever, like a few hundred dollars is a very small cost to pay for, I guess, people feeling like they're part of something and being taken care of.

And it's often not said with money. mean, we pay our tutors very well, and that's very important, but almost always you can spend 20, 30 bucks a person in a way that has significantly more impact than putting it in their bank account.

Like, we found that, you you can, like, you have a Christmas party and you go to, I don't know, Holy Moly, or, you know, one of these places, like these arcade places, and you have an amazing time.

Or we've done, like, outdoor archery and, like, bubble soccer. So we do a lot of activities together. Your typical team bonding stuff.

But it makes us feel part of a community, like you work at First Education, like it's like a thing.

And we've got, yeah, I'm not sure what I can attribute this to. It might be that we pay well, but I think it's just that our tutors are happy.

I've almost never had to advertise for more tutors. I mean, maybe for a very specific subject, but we have a lot of uni students reaching out and saying, Harry, do you need more tutors?

Like it happens regularly. Like I'm meeting a new tutor this afternoon. And every second day, yeah, it's two or three a week that I'm meeting a new tutor.

And I think it's because a tutor just enjoy being here. Like they feel valued. There's a social element to it, but without it being something where it overrides the initial goal.

Like the goal is to build our students' passion and confidence, and that's very clear. And that's primary. But then secondary to that is, well, okay, let's enjoy it.

Like, let's feel part of the team doing this thing together. And, yeah, and I think, I don't know how much credit I deserve for this because I did it naturally as a 20-year-old and I didn't really change it.

I just, like, stuck to the script.

Kirsty Gibbs: Well, I think you totally need to take the credit because if it wasn't for you being 20, 22, then this wouldn't have happened.

So, but it's kind of like when you're working at a school. You know, sometimes there's those schools and they're just toxic.

You know, people are whinging about other people and they're not sharing resources and ideas and everyone's bitching and moaning and it's just negative.

As opposed to a school where it's not that the people are different. It's that the environment is different in a sense that there's...

More community. There are things planned for people to come together. There is, like you said, it's more fun. You know, like if you have to go to work, people often be like, oh, I don't want go to work.

But one, if you enjoy what you do, and two, it's a great place to be, then that's how you're to get the best out of people, which then impacts the results that you get with the kids.

So I think it's really smart, and you definitely need to take credit for it.

Harry Mavrolefteros: Thank you, You want to reward the behaviors you want to see and punish the ones you don't, which includes, by the way, like stamping out them yourself.

Because often, like sometimes I'll find myself speaking badly of someone or, you know, saying a little white lie because I feel like it's easier.

And I'm like, no, no, that's not okay. I shouldn't have done that. Like I shouldn't have said that because it's not behavior.

So it's, yeah, analyzing ourselves as well and making sure that our, like we're walking the walk, know, we're doing.

We're living out the values that we hold ultimately. Yeah, and then we can do that for our team as well.

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah, love it. So I know I'm wrapping it up because I know you're very busy, but we've been working together for about six months now, yeah?

And I know that we've had at least one really massive win where, you know, I haven't shared this with everyone, but I intend to, where you feel like we've literally just paid for this coach, you know, six months of coaching in one decision today and, you know, made you 30 grand.

Harry Mavrolefteros: Like it was an amazing day. Yes.

Kirsty Gibbs: But other than that, or as well as that, what have you personally got out of working together and the coaching that we've been doing?

And by the way, just so everyone knows, Harry and I work together every single week. So I know his business quite well, you know,

It's not something that happens overnight, but I ask a lot of questions, and Harry's very good at giving me amazing answers, very in-depth and insightful and thoughtful.

But also because, you know, we're working so closely together, I'm giving Harry the extra little messages along the way.

So, yeah, I'd love you to share with everyone what you've gotten out of it so far and why you're continuing to come on for another six months. 

Harry Mavrolefteros: No, it's been fantastic. The most, okay, I'm very sure the greatest benefit is like something I cannot articulate, which is like you just like nudge in the right direction at the right time, which is very hard to predict.

But the biggest overall goal is just the feeling of support and the feeling of like something like a sounding board, but like better than that.

Like just someone who cares about your business, who wants you to do well and is going to see things that you don't and then guide you along there.

So, it's... it's... So, So there's an obvious benefit of sometimes a problem I want to solve. Sometimes I'm like, have this dilemma.

I don't know whether to pick A or B. In your experience, what do you think? And then, you know, you'll say, well, you know, Harry, the thing you might not see about A is X, Y, Z.

And, you know, there are these things to consider about B. And then we choose A or B, and that works out great.

And that's the obvious one when there's actually like a choice to be made. But sometimes it's, and more often than not, it's what I don't know, I don't know.

Like it's this, it's okay, something, I know I can be doing things better. Like I know there are better ways to be doing things.

But I don't know what, I'm blind to what is holding me back. I'm blind to what is stopping me from going forward.

And it's that unexpected guidance that makes a massive difference. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the thing are you referring to, like, we, yeah, we saved a lot of money.

Or we made a lot of money rather on On a particular decision, was a very small decision, but I never questioned it in my head.

Like I was doing something that just felt like that's what we should do. And I didn't give it enough thought.

And then just having someone to say, well, hold a second, Harry, why are you doing this? Like, well, why is it this much?

And then I thought about it. thought, this is incredible. Like it's, and it might be, often it's as simple as, and I imagine, Kirsty, this must happen a lot, where you work with a client and they raise their prices by $10 an hour or something, right?

And the bottom line impact of that is immense. Like it's, you don't, and you're worried about losing some parents, but then, I don't know, you do the math, like, hey, if I lose a third of my parents, I'm still making the same money.

And I have a calmer and quieter business. And I mean, it sucks because I can't help as many people, but in the scheme of things, I'll eventually help more people and that'll be great.

So, yeah, but that... And that benefit in the areas that I don't even know where it's going to happen, and then you get surprised by something, you're like, oh my God, I would have never thought of that, but you're right, and we should do that.

That's been the biggest, the biggest help for me, yeah. 

Kirsty Gibbs:  I mean, and I love, I love, you know, it's never hard. I love what I do always, but our conversations are so great because, you know, yes, you have such a big business.

But you could be, you know, often people in bigger businesses become quite arrogant, and they're all about the money, and they lose sight of what they're doing it for.

And I do think that that's actually potentially one of the mindset blocks that people have as to why they don't want a bigger business because they think, then I'll not care so much about the kids.

That's not the case at all. And with you, it's so obvious that that's not the case. And that's why I love working with you because not only are you teaching me things.

Along the way as well, it's just this positivity that you, you know, put out there, and the way that you have created such an amazing team, you know, around you, and the way that you listen, like you said, it's just fantastic.

So I think you should be so, so proud, and I thoroughly enjoy working with you, and I feel privileged to be working with you.

Harry Mavrolefteros: So to finish off. You've got two kinds of ways, but thank you very much. It's been a pleasure, and it's been great work in the last six months.

I look forward to the next six months, yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: Yeah. Well, leading on from that, to finish off, though, what's next for you? So, I mean, you've spoken about the software for your business. 

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yep.

Kirsty Gibbs: What else, you know, personally or professionally, what are you excited about as you look ahead?

Harry Mavrolefteros: Yep. No, wonderful question. I, it's hard to see too far in the future, because I don't know, like, there's a lot of uncertainty now around, around the new system, but generally speaking, I want to be more involved.

I want to be more involved in things that are meaningful to me. I want to be, I guess, getting the best out of my time, but also getting the best out of everyone's time.

I want to automate the things that AI and a computer should be doing so that we can all, I guess, get the best of our unique abilities to better achieve this ultimate goal that we have, which I think is very worthwhile, of building our students' passion and confidence.

If I can set up a system where I'm feeling like my day is more meaningful and I'm doing more meaningful things, and if I can remove a lot of the less menial, sorry, the more menial things, the less meaningful things that the staff members and other teachers are doing so they can focus on what really matters, that'll make, yeah, that's the direction that I see us going in in the future.

Yeah, I'm really excited about that, yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: So good. Well, thank you very much for your time today. really appreciate it. Like I said, I know you're very busy.

Harry Mavrolefteros: And I know this because we look at your calendar every day. Can we get rid of here? 

Kirsty Gibbs: Thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to chat. And like I said, it's been my favourite episode so far because you're just so great to talk to and you have so much wisdom to share.

And yeah, it's really, really good.

Harry Mavrolefteros: I've just made more mistakes, I think. Thank you. You're too kind. Thank you, Kirsty. It's wonderful. And I appreciate everything you do.

You do wonderful work. Yeah.

Kirsty Gibbs: Awesome. Thank you.